Warming up a -69 472

[R.Solur]

Hi folks!


Just bought me a -69 472+TH400 planning to replace the 350-pack in my -77 Caprice Wagon (red beauty!)
About "warming up", I`m not after wild power, just mild or a bit warmed up. Like 400RWHP or so..

I`ll do some head-porting and make up some short headers+dual 2,5", then intake, Crane ignition-module w.rev.limiter and test out how my Holley 650 DP spreadbore works on the big enegine.

- where does this take me? Will I need valvesprings, rockers.. :?

[Terrible One]

Talk to Al about a cam, that's what you need to make it complete. I would say maybe up the duals to 2.75".

By the way, the wagon looks awesome!

[R.Solur]

Thanks :oops:


Ok, so I`ll have to cam it up a little to make 400 on the wheels. But I wonder; will the stock rockers handle 5-5500rpm if they get a set of good springs to work with?

[Terrible One]

From what I've heard, they will be alright. I think I'll really be counting on them. My budget doesn't allow for rollers or really nice shaft rockers at this time.

[Nashalac]

From the information I've received 5000 - 5500 would not be advisable with stock rockers.

[R.Solur]

From the information I've received 5000 - 5500 would not be advisable with stock rockers.

- yeah, I read somewhere that they might break down around 5000rpm :?
But try to tell this guy about that:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/caddycarlo/caddycarlo.html

- I wonder if this rocker break down rather was a spring-related collapse.

Btw; does anyone know if any aftermarked rockers fits the Caddy-heads? Like Compcams rollertip or so? A set of those gives 20hp in a 300hp smallblock, beside reducing temp and stabilice valvetrain.

[STDog]

Btw; does anyone know if any aftermarked rockers fits the Caddy-heads? Like Compcams rollertip or so? A set of those gives 20hp in a 300hp smallblock, beside reducing temp and stabilice valvetrain.

Not directly. Some modifications can be made to allow different rocker arms to be used.
For example Potter Automotive (http://www.cadillacperformanceparts.com) sells a Roller Tip Rocker Set that use Comp Magnum rockers.(see attachemt or here (http://www.cadillacperformanceparts.com/components/com_phpshop/shop_image/product/6bc873bfb7d328cc1b767704ab256b54.jpg))
The cheapest he offered was a shaft system th still needs a little modification to the pushrod holes due to a change in arm ratio. $700 with new pushrods and all needed hardware.

Many other similar options out there too, but probably more expensive.

[Ted in Olympia WA]

The buick rockers, that MTS sells, will work fine and are priced reasonable, the only problem is that they are not adjustable. There has been some who made adaptors to use ford roller rockers but it takes a special person. To get to adjustable rockers you have to go $700 plus.

We should not really post potters site on the MTS board but as a note the reason that you have to machine the pushrod holes is because pottter uses 3/8 in pushrods. I don't know why he does this because I have seen 5/16 inch hold up under lots of lift. I run 5/16 with 1.72 rockers and they work fine. But machining the holes is not a big deal.

Also make sure they cut down the guides to allso for .750 lift so you can run any cam you want in the future. Also beehive springs might be worth looking into but I think MTS can set you up with good springs that my be cheaper.

I think 400HP will be pretty hard to get at the rear wheels (if not impossible) with a Cadillac. What you are shooting for here is low end torque, 400HP at the crank and 600 foot pounds is much more realistic. Torque rules! This is exactly what you want with your faily heavy wagon.

I think 2.5 inch duals will be fine but the 650 carb will be small. These engines like 800 plus CFM. The stock carb on the 500 was a 800cfm (I think your 472 is a 750) and GM put it there for a reason.

Good luck with you project. What kind of gears do you have in that wagon? I would think you would want 3.08 or slightly lower and a posi to get the power to the ground.

TED

[STDog]

The buick rockers, that MTS sells,
An I can the buy some other buick rockers later and use them?
Say I want to go from Aluminum to stainless steel arms?

We should not really post potters site on the MTS board
I was using it as an example, asumum the questioner alread knew of the MTS offering.
And it had a handy picture to link :)
If Al has something similr I missed it when I was looking.
I don't believe the Comp Magnum rockers will work with the MTS buick setup either.

but as a note the reason that you have to machine the pushrod holes is because pottter uses 3/8 in pushrods. I don't know why he does this because I have seen 5/16 inch hold up under lots of lift. I run 5/16 with 1.72 rockers and they work fine. But machining the holes is not a big deal.

So where did you 1) get the plate and studs and 2) what rrockers will work with that setup?

I'd love a roller tip rocker set up, that had readily available replacment arms (like 3/8 Chevy stud mounts), using the rest of the stock vale train, and worked with no machining.

I shouldn't need to machine anything, or use special pushrods , cam, or lifters.

[STDog]

The buick rockers, that MTS sells,
And I can the buy some other buick rockers later and use them?
Say I want to go from Aluminum to stainless steel arms?

I just checked the catalog again. The only stud mounted setup I see is the VT47 why "will not fit stock cast iron heads"

VT42 looks promising, but is a shaft mount system, not stud mount.
Looking at the picture, I'm not sure how many choices would be available for replacemet arms.

[Nashalac]

Unless you go to the aluminum heads you will need a shaft mounted rocker system. The iron heads are not set up for stud mounts. You WILL need to machine the guide tops for any can other than stock or the retainers will crash into the guides.

[Ted in Olympia WA]

The VT42 are the Buick rockers i was talking about. I don't think other rockers will work with this shaft. And I'm not sure what engine these rockers come off of or if they are modified to work with this size shaft. I have tried to do a serch for adjustable buick rockers that my work with this system but have not found any. I assume that if they were out there they would be offered.

The VT47 are designed to work only with the Bulldog heads. These heads are different than the stock heads.

TED

[R.Solur]

" I think 400HP will be pretty hard to get at the rear wheels (if not impossible) with a Cadillac. What you are shooting for here is low end torque, 400HP at the crank and 600 foot pounds is much more realistic. Torque rules! This is exactly what you want with your faily heavy wagon. "


Really? This old -69 472 has allready something close to those 375 hp, it should not be too hard making another 100hp!?!
Just rebuilding the exhaust should free some 40+hp :o
Anyway, a little fresh-up and I guess it`ll be enogh power to move my 4500lb wagon even if it`s got a 2.73 rearend.

About rockerarms; since this "CaddyCarlo" still goes with the original rockers I think/hope my max.5000+rpm project will do just fine too. I`ll do some research on this rocker-thing; I happen to know a few hard-core eneginebuilders that might solve this prob. I don`t like anyone selling overpriced parts that don`t even fit :x

[Terrible One]

Hm...darn, I was afraid about the stock rockers. Al, what's your take on this?

[Ted in Olympia WA]

CaddyCarlo said on his site that the stock engine put out 210 at the rear wheels even though he ran a 14.3 quarter. The 375 was gross at the crank and pretty optimistic.

Stock rockers will work just fine and if one fail, just get grab another used one. If you can still find the push rod.

TED

[R.Solur]

CaddyCarlo said on his site that the stock engine put out 210 at the rear wheels even though he ran a 14.3 quarter. The 375 was gross at the crank and pretty optimistic.

Stock rockers will work just fine and if one fail, just get grab another used one. If you can still find the push rod.

TED


CaddyCarlo`s enegine came from a -74; that`s a low-comp enegine. Low performance heads & cam. Mine is a -69, should give some more. But 375? :roll:

[Nashalac]

If you want to be a CSOB run stock rockers, stock rods, stock valve guide height. Just don't rev it over 4500 RPM or more damage could occur than than the cost to do these mods. The decission is tours. I recommend you continue to do reserch and ask questions. Persaonally I tend to lean to the safe side when building any high"er performance engine. Remember the stock Cad floats valves at about 4000RPM

[Hank]

R.Sulor,

While it is true that the cadcarlo engine is a '74 he has used the small
chamber head and as stated in his article the compression is now
12.5 to one. This is a fair bit higher than the stock compression of a '69
472. I'm not sure he is revving to 5500 RPM with stock rockers. I will have to look closer at the article to see if I can determine the revs.

Hank

[Terrible One]

Right now I think I am going to be making 550+ @ 5,000...

[Andy V]

Run your stock rockers, just check everything out good to ensure they are in good condtition.

5000 to 5500 the rockers will be fine. You'll need a decent spring to keep it from floating the valves though.

Disassemble the valve train, thoroughly clean all the parts and replace anything that looks worn bad. The stock valve train will handle a MT or VT5 or 10 cam with the right springs. With your gears and heavy car I wouldn't go above a MT10 cam or equivalent or I think it will be sluggish.

I'd use the money saved on rockers and get some bigger valves put in the heads for bang/buck. 2.11 or 2.19 intakes and 1.77 or 1.84 exh. are common sizes. Pontiac, Ford, BBC valves fit the bill and will run you in the $200 for a set of stainless.

Detonation with this combo (your 10.5:1 motor) may be tricky to tune out so you'll need to do what you can to optimize.....check quench height of pistons to head, maybe englare the chambers a little to get some more CC's, adj. vacuum advance and a well tuned mech. adv. curve will be in store to do it right.

[Terrible One]

Alright, as long as they will hold up I can save it for a few months. They are fully dissasembled. The engine is down to the block now. I'll see about getting some oversized valves put in though. That sounds good. The rockers are in great condition. Even the pushrods were, nothing bent, warped or anything. WE are replacing the pushrods just because it's a pretty cheap part. Springs are being replaced too. Guess I should be good to go.

[R.Solur]

AndyV:

" I'd use the money saved on rockers and get some bigger valves put in the heads for bang/buck. 2.11 or 2.19 intakes and 1.77 or 1.84 exh. are common sizes. Pontiac, Ford, BBC valves fit the bill and will run you in the $200 for a set of stainless "


Say; what size are the originals in a -69?

Btw; thanks for good info!

As said; I`m not after any wild performance, just a "tuneup". After tuning up my 170hp CSB350 it gives me 250hp at the wheels at 5000rpm. I definetly expect the 427 to make more power at the same revs.

[STDog]

As said; I`m not after any wild performance, just a "tuneup". After tuning up my 170hp CSB350 it gives me 250hp at the wheels at 5000rpm. I definetly expect the 427 to make more power at the same revs.

But the 472 is not a SBC. You'll have to make several mods to turn 5000rpm. The Cadillac is all about torque, not big HP numbers. Sure you can get there, 800+ if you spend the money.

[Andy V]

Original caddy valves are 2.00/1.60 intake/exhaust

I shift my 68 472 at 5200 with stock valve train at the track. It's seen the high side of 57-5800 a few times when the tires broke loose. I'm not saying they will all last like this, but from my experience so far it's been fine. 95% of the engine's life is spent on the street and it never even gets to 4000rpm though. Were I abusing it on a day to day basis a valve train upgrade would be a good idea.

Personally I have another motor with a stud mounted roller tip setup, purchased from the other vendor mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Gives a full adjustable setup which is nice, and I intend to lean on that motor hard more often. The stock heads have to be milled .350" to allow the stud base plates to fit.

[Terrible One]

I guess I'll just stick with the stock train, until I get some more money together. Just don't want to not put money where it needs it.

[STDog]

The stock heads have to be milled .350" to allow the stud base plates to fit.

I'm still curious why the mill work is needed. Whay can't it be done to the stock head?

Sticking with stock valves, springs, lift, and rocker ratio. I just want something that can be relaced in the future since new replacement for the stock rockers are not available. If some one makes them, please direct me to that source.

I doubt MTS wiil, since there are know shortcommings with them, and MTS is more performance oriented.

[R.Solur]

Well, 400hp on the crank or on the wheels, we`ll see. (g-tech :wink: )

Anyway, it should give the old wagon some more grunt 8)

I was looking for this "tourqe-pig" atricle but found this instead, not much but enough?


http://www.hotrod.com/tipstricks/113_0205_bolt/index23.html

[Terrible One]

This one?

[Terrible One]

The rest

[Terrible One]

And the last page..

[R.Solur]

Thanks, terribly kind of you :D

[Andy V]

"I'm still curious why the mill work is needed. Whay can't it be done to the stock head? "



ST Dog,

The stock heads have to be milled for this kit because you are bolting a 1/2" thick chrome moly adapter plate to the head surface. Without the milling the rockers will sit too high with the added adapter thickness.

It cost me about $80 to have a machine shop mill both heads in this area...but I see your hesitancy because once you do that you can't go back to a stock setup.

[STDog]

The stock heads have to be milled for this kit because you are bolting a 1/2" thick chrome moly adapter plate to the head surface. Without the milling the rockers will sit too high with the added adapter thickness.

1/2" plate? wow! I figured 1/4 or 3/8. but not 1/2.

Shouldn't we be able to modify the studs instead? The pivot point needs to be lowered to maintain geometry. I guess I need to get some studs and rocker arms and start playing.

:idea: Wonder if I can find some studs and arms from a junk engine around here...

[Nashalac]

Remember you also need to machine the guides shorter with anything other than a stock lift cam or the retainers will hit. Not a good thing.

[Andy V]

ST Dog,
Not sure you are picturing the rocker setup correctly. What I'm running is a stud mount adjustable setup, with the 1/2 base plates bolted to the head (after .350" milled off the head).
I will put some pics up later.

For your setup, I assume you say you need to lower the pivot point of the rocker for a reduced base circle cam? You can do this by grinding off the bottom of the rocker pedestals. To do this correctly, I would mock everything up before cutting, and come up with a way to measure the lifter preload you have on each pair of lifters (that go with each pedestal).
Then mark each pedestal with the amount you need to cut in order to get .030" minimum preload.
You may end up cutting all 8 pedestals the same, but I doubt it. Last time I did this they all came out different to get to .030" preload.

Grinding pedestals is cheaper than buying shorter pushrods, my $.02

[STDog]

ST Dog,
Not sure you are picturing the rocker setup correctly. What I'm running is a stud mount adjustable setup, with the 1/2 base plates bolted to the head (after .350" milled off the head). I will put some pics up later.

Yeah. But why a 1/2" thick plate? Strength?

And why the .35 milled off the head? Leave the head alone, and use a shorter rocker stud. Both move the pivot point of the rocker close to the head right?

For your setup, I assume you say you need to lower the pivot point of the rocker for a reduced base circle cam?

No. Looking for a way to have stud mounted rockers without head modification, and maintining the stock geometery. Adjustable rockers would be a plus. I want a more common rocker arm that I can buy at the average parts store, that will work with the stock cam and push rods, is more reliable than the cadillac pedestal setup, and doesn't require head machining.

You'd think it was possible. Maybe a slightly diferent ratio, but not so much the stock springs need changed, or causes other clearance problems.

[sean]

[quote=Andy V]ST Dog,


No. Looking for a way to have stud mounted rockers without head modification, and maintining the stock geometery. Adjustable rockers would be a plus. I want a more common rocker arm that I can buy at the average parts store, that will work with the stock cam and push rods, is more reliable than the cadillac pedestal setup, and doesn't require head machining.

You'd think it was possible. Maybe a slightly diferent ratio, but not so much the stock springs need changed, or causes other clearance problems.

The stud mount kit that requires the heads to be milled uses common cast small block Ford roller tip rockers from Comp cams. (I assume you could use any stock small block Ford rail type rocker if you wanted to) The strap the studs screw into must be thick enough to resist flexing, but it also must be thick enough to engage the threads of the studs. I doubt there is room to "lower" the pivot point like you desribe. There just isn't room to do it and maintain the stregth of the strap that holds it all together. If you use the stock springs there isn't a need to change anything else. Not even the cam. The stock stuff works fine with the stock springs for many miles. My experience is that it isn't the rockers that fail, its the T-pedestals. .02

[sean]

R.Sulor,

While it is true that the cadcarlo engine is a '74 he has used the small
chamber head and as stated in his article the compression is now
12.5 to one. This is a fair bit higher than the stock compression of a '69
472. I'm not sure he is revving to 5500 RPM with stock rockers. I will have to look closer at the article to see if I can determine the revs.

Hank

Rode in CC's car a few times and saw it near 7000 rpms. I don't know exactly how he does it and make it live, but he does. It has something to do with spring pressures and cam profiles, he said.

That said, I run aftermarket stuff for any performance caddy, either stud or shaft mount, because its not worth losing an engine IMO. Had a t-pedestal break and wipe the bearings in a mild performance caddy along time ago. Drove home from the track on 6 cylinders with t-pedestal bolts pulled out of the head before also.

Those tool steel T-pedestals look good too. If you can find some.

[STDog]

Had a t-pedestal break and wipe the bearings in a mild performance caddy along time ago. Drove home from the track on 6 cylinders with t-pedestal bolts pulled out of the head before also.

Those tool steel T-pedestals look good too. If you can find some.

So it the material the pedestal is mad out of, and the bolt into the head that's the problems?
The rocker arms themselves are OK? I heard the clips to hold them on the pedestals are a week point too, but only at high rpm.

If a tool steel pedestal is a good replacement I've got an idea... :idea:

[Terrible One]

I'm now going with Potters roller tip setup. I called him yesterday, only to find that he now has the same thing, but it fits without any milling or any other mods to the heads. besides making the pushrod holes larger, etc. :D

[sean]

Had a t-pedestal break and wipe the bearings in a mild performance caddy along time ago. Drove home from the track on 6 cylinders with t-pedestal bolts pulled out of the head before also.

Those tool steel T-pedestals look good too. If you can find some.

So it the material the pedestal is mad out of, and the bolt into the head that's the problems?
The rocker arms themselves are OK? I heard the clips to hold them on the pedestals are a week point too, but only at high rpm.

If a tool steel pedestal is a good replacement I've got an idea... :idea:

The pedestal is a problem. The bolt that holds the pedestal isn't a big problem, its that the bolt can pull the threads out of the head, its an easy fix with a helicoil. The stock rockers themselves haven't given me any trouble. I'm sure they flex more than good aftermarket style rockers though.

Thats just my experiance with the stock stuff.

[fleetwood472]

Hey Terrible One how much did that rocker setup end up costing you? I am thinking about using a better setup myself. - Justin

[Terrible One]

The one that requires milling is $550 w/ pushrods, the one that I got that does not was $650, with pushrods.There's something else better about them too, but can't remember. I just have a lot of money saved for my project so the extra hundred wasn't a big deal.

If you aren't spinning up to 5k and beyond, I wouldn't worry about it.