e85 in low compression

[hippy]

e85 fuel here in appleton, wi is less than $2.00 per gallon. Has anyone ever tried to tune a low compresion caddy to run on an alcohol blend? I curently have a 425 with an 8.5-1 compression and stock igniton timing curve. Will ice really form on my intake? Does the carb hae to bejetted richer? Any info on an alki conversion for a daily driver would be very helpful.

[Andy V]

I'm no expert on e85 as it is not available in my area...however from reading I have done I'd think you will notice reduced power with it.
You'd be feeding 110 octane equivalent fuel to a low compression motor. Rejetting and a different timing curve would be required to get decent results I would think...but the end results won't be that good.

IMO the caddy setup to run e85 on full time would be a 75/76 low compression short block with early 76cc heads (approx 12-13:1). High performance at low cost, and you have cheap fuel to feed it to boot.

Race gas equivalent to e85 octane rating is usually $5 per gallon here in PA.

[68C15]

from what dealer techs have told me & my own personal study running any blend of ethanol is a waste of money. on the average it costs 12% more to run E15 than straight gasoline. you get much lower mileage which offsets the lower cost of fuel. also re-jetting & adjusting your timing curve can be a real PITA.
ethanol has a much slower burn rate than regular gas.

ask anyone who owns a newer flex-fuel Ford Ranger or Taurus about the subject.

[Nashalac]

exactly - slower burn rate = higher octane - but - there is less thermal energy in the ethanol and a lower fuel/air ratio means lower mileage - BUT - with the added compression ratio mileage could be similar and more power. Big dissadvantage with the alcohol stuff is corrossion due the water absorbsion. Alcohol likes H2O

[68C15]

Big dissadvantage with the alcohol stuff is corrossion due the water absorbsion. Alcohol likes H2O
this is why GM has a bulletin where they dance around the subject. they say using anything higher than a 15% blend increases fuel line corrosion.

[Big-Daddy]

DONT DO IT!!!!!!!
The ethanol alcahol used in e85 is EXTREMELY corosive. After 2-3 tanks, it will begin to eat thru the rubber fuel lines in the chassis. After 7-10 tank fulls, it will actually begin to eat away the metal parts inside the carburetor.

To properly use this stuff, you need to replace the lines, fuel pump, and carburetor with parts spacifically designed to handle the corosive properties of alcahol.

These alcahol spacific parts are readily available, but are simply cost prohibitave in the face of decreased performance and MPG you will expirence once making the change-over.

[PeteR]

I have been running my 425 on E85 this summer, and it works just fine. However, I'm using megasquirt fuel injection, so I don't have the carb rejetting issue.

To run your 425 on e85 you must rejet your carb so the engine runs 27-30% richer then before. If you have a quadrajet I'm not sure it will work at all , beacuse the idle must be 27-30% richer as well.
And yes, your caddy will need 27-30% more fuel than before. :(

As for timing, you can advance your ignition a few degrees, as e85 has a higher octane rating than gasoline.


/Peter

[Andy V]

Pete,

Is the loss in power noticeable after you have adjusted your timing (more advance)?

I would think at 8.5:1 the higher octane fuel will make it quite sluggish.

The real deal would be to put a 13:1 motor together with a nice streetable cam (smallish) and run around on this e85 for cheap. Wish it was available around here because I would try it with a 76cc head / later shortblock combo in a heartbeat.

[STDog]

The real deal would be to put a 13:1 motor together with a nice streetable cam (smallish) and run around on this e85 for cheap. Wish it was available around here because I would try it with a 76cc head / later shortblock combo in a heartbeat.

Same here. In fact, I've got a 2 sets of rod/piston, from '72 and '74 472s. Clean them up and put them in the current 10:1 472. No more than a rering job as far as parts.

Alas, no E85 withing 200 miles :(

[PeteR]

Andy,

There is no power loss, there is in fact a small power gain, beacuse the torque increases when running on e85. There is a very decent e85 forum over here, and almost all people who tries E85 report a small power increase. The engine will also idle better, and at heavy load the engine will have a more aggressive sound. E85 burns a lot better than gas. Sluggishness is just a rumour.

I advanced my timing with about 4 degrees at wot (using trial and error).


You are absolutely right on the real deal! 13:1 is just perfect for E85. I will do the same trick for my new 500. :D


The biggest drawback with e85 is you must turn to the gas station more often, and when it's colder than -5C outside, it's a pain to start the engine.


I'm not sure about the 8.5:1 compression ratio for the 425. The 77 shop manual says 8.5:1 , but when I calculate the ratio my result is 9.31:1!
(When I calcutale the ratio for other cad engines, the result match with the shop manual).

[Modly]

Not sure about where everybody else is, but we're already running a 10% ethanol blend in Michigan.

I think that E85 is a great idea. It will reduce our dependancy on foreign oil, and keep our money out of the arabs pockets.

Aside from the lack of availability in my area, I'd be up for running it. I'm already running aluminum fuel line, so I'm ready in all respects, except for tuning the carb.

If it was more available, I'd get some earlier heads on my engine, jack my compression, and run it straight.

I've also never heard of people getting a sluggish motor from advancing the timing (Well, maybe if you go way overboard, but not a few degrees)

[hippy]

Hey thanks for all your help with this. I don't think i'm gonna run it, but I'm glad I got everyone talking about it. FYI, e85 fuel burns 25% more fuel than it saves. All the corn has to be grown, harvested, hauled, and processed, and this runs on diesel fuel. We all should be aware of the big picture and that the ethanol solution is merely an economic/political ploy to make the consumer happy with lower prices, yet the oil companies are happy with the increased demand. no, i'm gonna get my horse to run on cold fusion.

[Andy V]

The torque increase due to the increased spark advance I would think, not necesarily the fuel being used? Although the e85 would run cooler and would make more power there as well.

So the question in my mind had been if the increased octane level (slower burn and less energy) would be greater than the torque gains (esp. in the lower rpms) found from cooler temps and being able to run more spark advance without detonation. Sounds like it is not, and you get a better performing package when tuned.

Don't know if it will ever come to PA....I'd try it if it did...not so much for a daily driver but for a high comp. thumper it would be a lot cheaper than race gas for certain.

7mpg who cares if it's not $5 a gallon

[STDog]

Hey thanks for all your help with this. I don't think i'm gonna run it, but I'm glad I got everyone talking about it. FYI, e85 fuel burns 25% more fuel than it saves. All the corn has to be grown, harvested, hauled, and processed, and this runs on diesel fuel.

I'll attempt to be apolitical here.

Currently ethanol dues use a lot of petro. But it doesn't have to be. first, the governement should stop subsidizing the program. Let it compete on it's own merit. As for the diesel used, that's where bio-diesel should come into play. Use of the waste products to generate energy for production. My understanding is that bio-diesel could be mass produced and distributed if they was demand.

But it's a chicken and egg situation. Low demand, so supply is poor. Poor supply reduces demand. Try to purchase a decent car in the USA that runs on diesel. In many areas the lot's do have them, and the fuel availability is limited. Where I am 1 in 10 statuions have diesel. Most of those are along shipping routes. The other serves local fleets, like the fire department, ambulance company, and utility companies. None have bio-diesel.

If bio-diesel had half the availibility of gasoline, then vehicles that can use it would be available. And the larger usage would lower costs. If the giovernem would offr the same incentives to setting up bio-diesel production and distribution as the have for "hybrids" and other non-petroleum technologies a lot could be done. At the same time it need to be a limited time program, that is phased out quickly (like the ethanol program should have been). 5 years to set up and a 5 year phase out. Then it must stand on it's own.

Then diesel powered vehicles would come back, especially in the "enviro" crowd. Imagine being able to buy any/every vehicle with a diesel engine instead of a gasoline engine. It was tried in the '80s but availibility was too limited. And many(most?) problems with older diesels have been solved. Just look at the use of diesel outside the USA.

I'm currently looking for a diesel engine to put in a Toyota I own. Once it's on the rood, I'm going to start making my own bio-diesel for it if I can manage storage. Hell, I might even look at using straight vegetable oil too.

[fireturtle]

STDog you have probably already checked into this but if not check out www.greasel.com I considered this for my wifes truck but we simply don't put on enough miles to justify it .

[sean]

Link to a lengthy discussion about E85 for use in performance applications and from people using it:
http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0

PeteR: How is that MS working for you? Any pics of the install? Sounds interesting.

[PeteR]

Sean,
I posted some info under the megasquirt topic. :D

[hippy]

Biodiesel could be a solution, but I doubt we'll see it for at least 10 years. In Minnesota, they've been running a 10% blend, and now truckers are complaining that their filters plug in the winter. This is one of many poor attributes associated with biodiesel which will not be easily dealt with as long as diesel is available. When the oil supply is depleted in thirty years, I am sure that biodiesel will be an economical option ( right now it costs more to mass produce, per gallon, than diesel in the US), but in thirty years, I sincerely hope we will have an alternative to the internal combustion engine.

[STDog]

Biodiesel could be a solution, but I doubt we'll see it for at least 10 years. In Minnesota, they've been running a 10% blend, and now truckers are complaining that their filters plug in the winter. This is one of many poor attributes associated with biodiesel which will not be easily dealt with as long as diesel is available.

That makes no sense. In the end the two are the same liquid hydrocarbons.
The produce either need to filter it better, or something fishy is going on.

right now it costs more to mass produce, per gallon, than diesel in the US

I doubt that entirely acurate. The econemy of scale factors in. So there just isn't enough being produced to reduce the productuion costs. I'm not sure what the raw material sources are, but I doubt they are geared to bio-diesel productiion either.

Then there's the production cost reductions that will come with improved production methods. I read that current gasoline production is something like 1/8 the cost from the 50s (adjusting for inflation). I know the current, DIY, back yard methods don't scale well, and for real mass produiction other methods will need to be used.

[hippy]

Hey, diesel and biodiesel may perform similarily, but they are not the same. Biodiesel clouds at a much higher temperature than diesel. At 30-35 degrees F, most biodiesels cloud, making it too thick to flow through a 10 micron filter found on diesels. One cannot filter this characteristic out of the product. You run into the same problem with diesel, but around 10 F. Mixed with kerosene and additives, the diesel cloud point could come down to around 0 F. Engine manufacturers don't condone the use of biodiesel as a fuel source in their engines because currently there are so many variables with back yard alchemists. If you use used cooking oil, and the oil has been treated by the restaraunt to be re-used, it will destroy your injectors. Biodiesel also destroys materials often used in modern diesel engines like o-rings and pump seals. Also, biodiesel contains less BTU per pound, making it less economical to use in trucks where weight=money, and until the trucks start using biodiesel, there is no significant demand. The only place where biodiesel is curently economical is in Europe, where diesel costs $1.80 per liter.